Trade Talk Today K - Day 6

00:00:02: Welcome to Trade Talk Today, your daily inside.

00:00:08: This show is brought to you by...

00:00:20: Welcome to Trade Talk Today and yes, it is day six of the K. The K is the number one trade fair in plastics and rubber industry.

00:00:33: And yes, here on the show, we actually talk to the pioneers, to the movers and shakers who are at the forefront of plastics processing, product development, and also presenting innovative solutions for the industry.

00:00:48: Today, I have two wonderful guests with me.

00:00:51: Our first guest is Ulrich Reifenhäuser, the chairman of the Association of Plastics and Rubber Machinery, the VDMA, as well as Immanuel Rapendi.

00:01:03: He's the global head of polymers and crystallization at Zalser Chemtech.

00:01:09: But first of all, Ulrich, thank you so much for making the time and being here.

00:01:15: Oh, thank you.

00:01:16: Happy to be here.

00:01:17: In order to start the day, we're going to go with some rapid fire.

00:01:21: question is either or so you will just choose one and I'm going to go through ten quickly for you and it'll give us a chance to get to know you a little bit better.

00:01:30: Okay.

00:01:31: So question one, orange juice or coffee to start your day?

00:01:36: Orange juice.

00:01:38: Very good.

00:01:39: Early riser or night owl?

00:01:43: I can do both.

00:01:45: Okay.

00:01:46: On your playlist, classical music or modern pop?

00:01:49: Modern pop.

00:01:51: Mountains or beach for your holidays?

00:01:55: Summertime beach, winter, mountain.

00:01:59: In meetings, either more spontaneous or scheduled?

00:02:03: Very spontaneous.

00:02:04: Very spontaneous.

00:02:05: Morning walk or evening for your relaxation time?

00:02:10: Morning walk.

00:02:11: Morning walk.

00:02:13: Smartphone or tablet?

00:02:14: What is always with you?

00:02:15: Smartphone.

00:02:18: Your VDMA leadership approach, is it more a collaborative consensus building or a decisive direction setting?

00:02:25: Ah, it's collaborative.

00:02:27: It's

00:02:27: collaborative.

00:02:28: No

00:02:28: doubt.

00:02:28: Very good.

00:02:30: The German engineering future, what excites you most?

00:02:33: Incremental precision improvements or revolutionary technology leaps?

00:02:39: We have to do all these things.

00:02:43: We have to be innovative.

00:02:44: Innovative.

00:02:45: That's where it goes.

00:02:47: The K- in the K- in the K- in the K- in the K- in the K- in the K- in the K- in the K- in the K- in the K- in

00:02:56: the K- in the K- in the K-

00:02:57: in the K- in the K-

00:02:57: in the K- in the

00:02:58: K- in the K- in the K- in the K- in

00:02:59: the K- in the K- in the K- in the K- in the K- in the K- in the K- in the K- in the K- in the K-.

00:03:03: That's really exciting.

00:03:04: Very

00:03:05: good.

00:03:05: That's the reason to come to the cave.

00:03:07: Exactly.

00:03:08: Very good.

00:03:09: Let's quickly start with the interview.

00:03:13: A little bit more serious.

00:03:14: The cave sold out with a huge international interest.

00:03:20: What is driving the momentum already for the plastic industry?

00:03:27: It's the material.

00:03:28: It's plastic.

00:03:29: It's all about plastic.

00:03:31: Let's be... serious honest and The truth is plastic is the most successful and best material worldwide.

00:03:44: You can compare with glass with paper the metal Plastic is the low-cost.

00:03:51: low-cost material is the best to shape is the most durable as Co to the carbon footprint on plastic is by far the lowest.

00:04:02: but So can economies not missing.

00:04:06: but we have to do more.

00:04:08: we did forgot a little about so can economy about recycling.

00:04:12: But this now really really is is getting on speed and even the show.

00:04:18: now Show some nice.

00:04:20: nice demonstrates

00:04:21: that

00:04:21: and honest and strong developments and even on that real you will succeed.

00:04:27: Let's quickly go with that because as the video a board member.

00:04:30: How are your two hundred companies?

00:04:33: embracing the green smart transformation.

00:04:39: The green smart transformation is not we didn't get these words and then do it.

00:04:45: It's a description of what is happening.

00:04:47: The industry is eager to to find solutions to enable the plastic plastic plastic use of plastic but also the responsibility for circular economy.

00:05:04: So we are so much active.

00:05:09: It's not only machine building a little bit nicer, a little bit better, but the ideas of the machine builds, of the plastic industries are fantastic.

00:05:20: It's really, I love to be here to see what all this coming role is presented.

00:05:28: and proud what we present as a company, but also what all the others do.

00:05:34: It's a perfect show.

00:05:36: Very good.

00:05:37: You've been the K-Chairman now for seven terms.

00:05:41: Congratulations.

00:05:43: So what makes the twenty twenty-five edition strategically significant for the industry?

00:05:52: Let's be honest.

00:05:53: Show.

00:05:55: always you'll find special feeling.

00:05:59: but the industry is in a crisis because of geopolitical reasons because of tariff reasons.

00:06:09: it's not.

00:06:10: it's not so easy for the time being but plastic is growing.

00:06:15: the demand of plastic worldwide grows and this is what we feel especially what we feel now and maybe talk about that a little later.

00:06:30: The industry has this momentum and there is a need for new developments, new solutions.

00:06:40: and this is what the K is presenting and goes through the arts, how the K industry is presented.

00:06:49: This is marvelous.

00:06:51: There's no other place in the world than here in K and Dusseldorf to see and to feel the plastic industry.

00:07:01: You mentioned that we're looking at obviously a new geopolitical realities.

00:07:06: A lot of the visitors, seventy percent are international that are coming here.

00:07:10: What three trends should the K audience watch out for, look out for?

00:07:19: We yeah, we do have trends the first trends and in a way this is a little bit Forgotten, but we do.

00:07:27: it is the Olympic idea.

00:07:30: we have technology and we have processes and The machine builders the resin producers.

00:07:37: we like to do better And this is why we are here and a lot of engineers, especially with the machines with the processes have a lot of attempts and yeah the olympic area do it faster, do it thinner, do it more productive, do it less cost.

00:07:53: So this had a lot of a lot of nice novelties.

00:07:58: you see on the on the K. Next is circle economy.

00:08:03: We have to do more recycling.

00:08:05: We have to do real honest recycling.

00:08:07: We have to find new products, recyclable products.

00:08:14: And the market, not the market, the industry, especially the machine building industry, they are advanced.

00:08:22: We do have solutions, solutions that are advanced to what the market now needs, what the politicians say we have to have.

00:08:32: So, circular economy recycling process is an absolutely must, must, must have, but it needs time and it needs pressure.

00:08:43: Right.

00:08:43: Honestly speaking, it's really especially white because a recycled material has a functionality where we have the virgin material and we have a recycled material product.

00:08:55: The recycled material costs a little more and functionality is a little less.

00:09:00: Correct.

00:09:01: Would you buy that?

00:09:02: No.

00:09:03: Because more is functionality is less.

00:09:06: But we have to.

00:09:07: We have to and how to achieve this, we need loss by law.

00:09:13: They have to say, you have to do this.

00:09:15: Thirty percent, fifty percent has to be recycled material, recyclates in the material.

00:09:22: Now we can do and with the machine builders, we have processes, we have products.

00:09:28: We now have to get started.

00:09:29: Absolutely.

00:09:30: And I think with that, looking ahead to two thousand and three.

00:09:34: Yes.

00:09:35: Artificial intelligence.

00:09:37: Yes.

00:09:38: Wow.

00:09:39: Artificial intelligence is now here.

00:09:44: Three years ago was not.

00:09:45: yes digitalization this crazy technology even have no idea how they do this.

00:09:53: But it's it's it's so nice.

00:09:54: It's now within in the machines.

00:09:58: We have a shed pot in our machines and you can ask This little box a question And it answers you and it has the right.

00:10:08: the right answer

00:10:09: correct

00:10:11: different to the To the to the artificial intelligence in internet and then it answers you if it doesn't know our shit, but says sorry, I don't know But we are proceeding and this is this is really the the very very new thing

00:10:29: Absolutely.

00:10:30: Absolutely.

00:10:31: And I think just in closing, maybe with a short sort of idea, we'll be moving to, where do you see the developments, maybe also within AI, if you're just looking at two thirty five years down the line?

00:10:44: Plastic, there's no way around plastic, even to just one example, the most important example, to feed the world population, to bring food from the farmers, from the fishermen.

00:10:58: to the consumers.

00:10:59: You need packaging.

00:11:01: If you don't have packages, seventy percent of the fishes will stink and you cannot eat.

00:11:08: So you need packages.

00:11:10: Will the fish, apples, whatever be in glasses?

00:11:15: No, it has to be in plastic.

00:11:19: So we will improve on the packages.

00:11:21: It will be thinner.

00:11:22: It will be recyclable.

00:11:25: And what we need now is Yeah, all the and then the governments are on duty to do this to organize this as we are fairly good here in Europe.

00:11:38: The Asians in Japan, Korea and South Korea, they're good.

00:11:42: They're really good on that.

00:11:44: So all the countries have to do this.

00:11:46: So this will be something.

00:11:48: what will happen, products will be more better recyclable, they will be smarter.

00:11:55: What else?

00:11:56: The machine will be Also much more smarter.

00:12:00: We will have artificial intelligence within the machines because the one one very big problem is to run the machines to have the intelligence to have the guts, the feeling.

00:12:11: This a lot is a lot of will be taken over by artificial intelligence by automation of the machines.

00:12:20: What else?

00:12:22: There will be growth.

00:12:23: There will

00:12:24: be growth.

00:12:25: Plastic will grow.

00:12:28: For sure.

00:12:29: I'm looking forward

00:12:32: to that.

00:12:32: I'll

00:12:34: bet you an orange tooth.

00:12:38: We thank you so much for your time.

00:12:39: I wish you all success also with your current term as the chairman of the VDMA and we look forward speaking and seeing you again.

00:12:47: Thank you so much.

00:12:48: Thank you.

00:12:49: So there you have it, all right, now is the chairman of the VDMA, and we spoke about the circular economy of plastics.

00:12:59: So let's quickly go ahead and have a look at the power of plastics forum, where we're actually showcasing this circular economy.

00:13:54: And so.

00:14:03: There you can see that the cycle does indeed start here.

00:14:07: A beautiful impression of all the holes, the machinery in use, and all the things that we need to do to make sure that we have a zero emission footprint.

00:14:16: But now I have the great pleasure to introduce our second guest, that is Emmanuel Rapendi, the global head of polymers and crystallization at Salsa.

00:14:28: Welcome, Emmanuel.

00:14:30: So good for you to be here.

00:14:31: Thanks for having me.

00:14:32: Thank you.

00:14:33: We're going to start the interview just with some rapid fire questions to get the interview a good energy, so to say, and maybe also give us a little bit of insight into the type of person that you are and your personality.

00:14:46: Are you ready?

00:14:47: I hope.

00:14:48: Let's do it.

00:14:49: Okay, orange juice or coffee to start the day?

00:14:52: Coffee.

00:14:54: Early riser or night owl?

00:14:58: Depends.

00:14:59: Okay.

00:15:00: Nineties Electro or Contemporary Jazz, if I look at your playlist.

00:15:07: Nineties Electro.

00:15:08: Very good.

00:15:09: Mountains or beach for relaxation?

00:15:11: Mountains.

00:15:12: Mountains.

00:15:13: Meeting in a café or a quick zoom call?

00:15:17: Café.

00:15:19: Morning run or evening gym session?

00:15:22: Morning run.

00:15:24: Smartphone or tablet, what's always with you?

00:15:27: Smartphone.

00:15:29: Homemade cooking?

00:15:30: or street food adventure for dinner

00:15:33: on meat cooking

00:15:35: audiobooks or ebooks for winding down

00:15:39: ebooks.

00:15:41: and the most exciting is also trend this year biopolymer innovation or digital process optimization.

00:15:49: biopolymer innovation

00:15:51: it has to be.

00:15:52: you're biased.

00:15:53: okay very good.

00:15:54: let's quickly start with the more serious part of the interview.

00:15:59: Emmanuel, you brought us a sample reflecting your last project, so to say.

00:16:06: So what does this first of all represent?

00:16:08: Maybe you quickly want to show it to the camera.

00:16:10: And what does it say about the breakthrough in large scale PLA production?

00:16:15: And maybe also just tell us what PLA is for those who don't know.

00:16:18: Very

00:16:19: good.

00:16:19: So let's start with what PLA is.

00:16:23: So PLA is a biopolymer and often by definition we say a biopolymer can be either biobased or biodegradable.

00:16:32: And PLA in that case can be both.

00:16:35: And here what you see on the table, I'm trying to lift it up, breaking it, is actually a PLA production facility.

00:16:43: So this is a seventy five kiloton production facility that actually, you know, you can feed with lactic acid and produce PLA.

00:16:52: So that's the full plant, you know, containing all the tools and know how technology equipment and services that we typically supply to.

00:17:01: And a lot of switch and tears, I think, from your side, right?

00:17:04: It

00:17:04: is, yeah, exactly.

00:17:06: And once, I mean, one specific thing about this is that it's actually made of PLA.

00:17:12: And it's a three D printed, which is one of the key applications where PLA is used among other applications like packaging, et cetera.

00:17:19: But you can three D print PLA.

00:17:21: That's one of the most used material for three D printing.

00:17:24: And this PLA plant was three D printed with PLA material.

00:17:29: You obviously don't do this alone.

00:17:31: You have some strategic partners as well to assist you.

00:17:36: So how do these strategic partners help you?

00:17:40: create a sustainable polymer production.

00:17:43: So we work with partners at all stages of the value chain.

00:17:47: So when we have an idea about a new technology, a new piece of technology, a new polymer, then often we do have close relationship, close ties with institutes, with universities, trying to get the basic fundamentals right.

00:18:01: So that's typically an area where we do core development.

00:18:05: We also do work a lot with our own clients.

00:18:07: So we do have clients that You know are willing to have a technology that is slightly different than what we offer and even willing to be part of this development or this co-development together with us.

00:18:19: So there's a lot of the technologies that we develop which at some point in time, you know, we developed with clients.

00:18:26: And last is we do more and more into application development.

00:18:32: So not only producing PLA, but also being able to not only supply technology for PLA production, but also being able to help our clients to use it, you know, whether it's for packaging or three D printing or textile or agricultural films, our clients come to us or their own clients come to us asking for, you know, whether we can support with formulation with testing with the development of the polymer in use, right, to make sure that it fits, you know, the necessary requirements.

00:19:03: So those are typical areas where we do collaborate together with partners.

00:19:08: Now, we're looking at a world today that, obviously, there is a rapid PLA market growth, but we're also looking at new geopolitical realities.

00:19:19: One of the aspects affected is the energy costs per se.

00:19:24: How do you tackle this energy challenge and also the production challenge that comes with it?

00:19:30: Yeah, so that's true.

00:19:33: in PLA in biopolymers, but that's true across the polymer chain.

00:19:36: A lot of the work that we do aims at reducing the total cost in use of the polymers which are being produced.

00:19:44: And this we do in three typical areas.

00:19:47: One is working with cheaper feedstocks, alternative feedstock, lower quality feedstock, making sure that our processes can handle basically cheaper feedstock in the process.

00:19:59: We also work a lot in improving efficiency of our processes, energy efficiency, yield.

00:20:06: making sure we use less raw material per kilogram of polymer.

00:20:10: Those are areas where a lot of our equipment design and process design is focusing on.

00:20:17: Recycling is also one key area, not only to be green, but also to improve the performance of the overall units that we sell.

00:20:28: And as well, when you look at the end use application, so one way to be more competitive is to have a superior product.

00:20:36: If you can use less polymer, if you have a polymer that allows to replace another more expensive polymer, those are typically areas where we work with our different teams to make sure we offer a better solution, including the total cost in use.

00:20:54: I think that is a good segue into our next question.

00:20:59: How are you ensuring the biodegradability of PLA can actually be delivered at the end of the life cycle?

00:21:09: Yeah,

00:21:09: that's a very good question because there's a lot of miscommunication about what biodegradability is or could be and what... meeting this requirement means.

00:21:20: So typically when we look at biodegradability we have to see in which context.

00:21:25: Is that in a composting unit?

00:21:27: Is that in a sweet water environment?

00:21:31: Is that in the soil?

00:21:32: Is that in salt water environment?

00:21:35: And for each of those specific use case, whether it's where the polymer is used or where the polymer will end its life, there's different standards which are used.

00:21:47: The one that we typically, or that we commonly follow in biopolymers is the compostability norm.

00:21:56: So one of the reference norm is the EN-XIII-XIV-XIII-XII, I think I managed that, which is an area where we want to make sure that we meet those industrial composting standards, which requires a collection of the biopolymers.

00:22:15: And

00:22:16: for example, the packaging could be collected with the organic waste and the waste food and go into the industrial composting area.

00:22:25: My last question, Emmanuel, what opportunities does the K- in the year of the K- in the year of the K- in the year of the K- in the year of the K- in the year of

00:22:33: the K-.

00:22:33: in the year of the K-.

00:22:34: in the year of the K-.

00:22:35: in the year of the K-.

00:22:36: in the year of the K-.

00:22:37: in the year of the K-.

00:22:38: in the year of the K-.

00:22:38: in the year of the K-.

00:22:39: in the year of the K- in the year of the K-.

00:22:40: in the year of the K-.

00:22:41: in the year of the K-.

00:22:41: in the year of the K- in the year of the K-.

00:22:43: in the year of the K-.

00:22:44: in the year of the

00:22:45: K- in the year of the K-.

00:22:46: in the year of the K- in the year of the K- in So I've been attending the case show since I started my career in Polymer.

00:22:50: So the last time was, you know, twenty years ago, pretty much.

00:22:51: And I attended every event at the cave here.

00:22:53: The KFA I use and my team use for different reasons.

00:22:56: One is it's a great place to go and promote new solutions.

00:23:00: This year we promote new biopolymers like PEF, like PCL on top of our PLA technology, but we also promote recycling technology for solvent-based recycling and for chemical recycling.

00:23:15: And it's also a great platform to meet the industry, to get the pulse of the industry, meeting suppliers, customers.

00:23:22: So it's actually a great, great place to get a pulse of the industry.

00:23:27: And the last point, what I would highlight is it's also a place where we notice every client that has a significant investment to make in the field of Polymer.

00:23:40: within the next, let's say, months or years, we'll attend the K Show to actually get a sense for, you know, what are the best solutions out there, what is the best partner they can find for their project.

00:23:55: Very good.

00:23:56: So I look forward seeing you again in three years time, because I think you have to, right?

00:24:00: There's no other choice.

00:24:02: Emmanuel, thank you so much for your time.

00:24:05: Did you got your busy schedule to be here?

00:24:07: Really appreciate it.

00:24:07: and also success with the K. Thank you, Michael.

00:24:10: Thank you.

00:24:12: Great, so there you have it.

00:24:14: with Emmanuel Rapendi.

00:24:17: Wonderful that he took the time to talk to us today.

00:24:20: And a small teaser for tomorrow, and we spoke a little bit about that today as well, is tomorrow's Tuesday and we called it a visionary Tuesday.

00:24:28: Why?

00:24:29: Because we're going to be looking at the world of plastics in the year two thousand and fifty.

00:24:34: That's only twenty five years from now.

00:24:36: And we're going to be asking the question, how can we become fully circular and climate neutral?

00:24:42: I think still a very key important question that is going to be accompanying us for the next years, as well as join us for our guided tour.

00:24:50: So we have the hidden champions of polymer recycling and smart design, smarter application and resource efficient production.

00:24:58: This is all on our K website, as well as on our Instagram account.

00:25:03: Just look up the voice of K. And a small teaser for tomorrow.

00:25:08: I'm really looking forward.

00:25:09: speaking to Christina Bunte.

00:25:11: She is the managing director of Plastics Europe, as well as Ludovic Boas.

00:25:15: He's the product manager pumps at MOOC Industrial.

00:25:20: I wish you a wonderful day at the trade fair, travel safe, and see you again tomorrow.

00:25:25: Bye-bye.

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